Smut Scenes and Graph Paper: An Interview With Dafna G.

Can you see this happening in The West Wing? After a long day at the office CJ, Toby, Josh and Sam meet up at Toby's apartment for a Thanksgiving celebration involving popcorn balls, candy apples and more alcohol than is safely contained amongst four people. After imbibing heartily Josh and Sam snog, CJ loses her bra, and before we know it we're full throttle into a full on, White House orgy. This, ladies and gentlemen, is why Brad Whitford lives in fear of West Wing websites.

Dafna G wrote the above scenario in Dioscorea - a story that was, at the same time, amusing, sexy and, surprisingly enough, bordering on plausible. The kind of fic that makes you go, "that's so crazy - but it works!"

Which prompted those of us at EEVIYE to ask, "Just how does she do it?"

In the transcript below, Dafna G talks about slash, smut and Graham Crackers.

Christinecgb: Ok - well let's talk about Dioscorea then (because you know how much I'm dying too)! What possessed you to write Dioscorea?

dafnagreer: I owe it all to (Kemuri). I was trying to talk her into writing a sequel to A Friendly Game of Poker. In that story, the gang is playing poker and it comes out that Jed & Leo are lovers. But one of the other fun parts of it is that everyone turns out to have had a same-sex experience except for Josh, who comes off as very shockable. So, I was nagging (Kemuri) to write a sequel where Toby, Sam & CJ wind up having sex afterward. And I told her how I'd always wanted someone to write an orgyfic based on "Shibboleth." And in a series of e-mails about her story, I somehow wound up sketching the basic idea for Dioscorea until she was like, "you really have to write this." And she beta'd a few versions of it, so I owe her for that as well. She was a very good beta. She'd be like, '"OK, now whose arm is that here."

Christinecgb: LOL!

dafnagreer: Seriously, if you ever write an orgyfic, I highly recommend diagramming who's where, because it's easy to lose track. :) So, that's how I wound up finishing my first fanfic ever. But I mean, I'd been reading the stuff for years, so it's not like I was unfamiliar with the PWP (plot-what-plot?) genre.

Christinecgb: I have to admit - the first thing I thought of was, "eurwwww" but then I found myself returning to it and returning to it and thinking "this is rather good" - is that a common reaction?

dafnagreer: I got a lot of comments like, "so wrong but so right "or, "wow, they sound just like themselves -- you know, until they start doing it." And that's why it works, really. It has no plot to speak of, so the characterization is what carries it. Plus, you know,the smut. :)

Christinecgb: Did you get anyone telling you it was offensive or squicky or just plain "you're disgusting"?

dafnagreer: No. It's funny though -- I first posted it to the slash list and people there liked it, but it wasn't like, "wow!" or anything. Then later I decided to post it to the CJ/Toby list -- because I think it's really a CJ/Toby story as much as anything -- and the reaction there was quite different. There was a lot more sheer surprise at the very idea. But no one was mean or anything. I just got a lot more feedback along the lines of "I would've never thought of this." Not that there are tons of threesomes or anything in slashfic either (in this fandom, anyway) -- but maybe slash fans, who tend to be older, are more likely to have read something like this in another fandom? I mean, I started out reading Voyager fanfic and Trek fic is just rife with stuff like this.

Christinecgb: It's a very titillating story - were you trying to be erotic? As a writer I know how hard that is.

dafnagreer: Well, I think it would be bad form to write an orgyfic and *not* have it be erotic. :) I mean, when I read Pixelvixen's Better Sorry than Safe I was blown away at how she was able to write a serious threesome fic. I mean, it was totally sexy, but she also had a plot and character growth and everything. But that wasn't my intention. I mainly wanted to write the characters and see if I could get them to all have sex and have it be believable. And tell some jokes. All my stories have jokes -- even when I don't mean for them to be funny. :)

But to address your question more squarely -- I think if you're going to write NC-17 fanfic (assuming it's not a rape scene or something equally squicky), you owe it to the reader to be erotic.I mean, it's like writing a dialogue scene. If you don't think it's good dialogue, why should your reader? So, yeah, in addition to graph paper, an ability to fantasize definitely helps.

Christinecgb: I think I'll put the kettle on. I'd offer you one but, you know, you being on the other side of the world and all ;)

dafnagreer: And I've got bottled water, so I'm fine. :) And graham crackers! I always forget how good graham crackers are.

Christinecgb: But not all NC-17 fic is erotic. I'm wondering how writers manage to find that fine line between describing intercourse and writing something that gives the reader hot flushes. Do you have any advice? I have no idea what Graham crackers are...

dafnagreer: (graham crackers) I think it's important to remember that a lot of sex is mental. As Erica Jong once put it, "what differs is not so much the fucking, but the fantasy." And that's even more true in fanfic (or any kind of written erotica) -- where the reader is adding her imagination anyway. Also, the standard writer's advice to "show, not tell" applies. In the case of sex scenes -- that means to beware spending a lot of time focusing on every little detail. Leave room for the reader to fill in some blanks. So, for example, in Dioscorea the story is told from CJ's POV -- and you do occasionally find out what's going on in her mind, but not all the time. Some of it's just description. And well-written dialogue can tell you a lot. Actually, I'm just finishing a storywhere the sex isn't really described at all -- all you get is Josh's POV on what he's feeling. But again, it's somewhat minimal – and because it's not accompanied by a lot of descriptive detail, I think it works.

Christinecgb: Let's talk about Jed/Leo slash. In West Wing fanfic the popular slash pairing is Josh/Sam but you seem to have gone for Jed/Leo. It can't be the easiest pairing to do - why Jed/Leo?

dafnagreer: Huh. Never thought about it as "easy" or "hard." If anything, Jed/Leo is easier for me, because I feel like I have things to say about them. Whereas I don't really for Josh/Sam -- or at least not that hasn't already been said. I honestly think that certain characters just grab you and make you want to write about them. I find the idea of their long friendship very appealing -- and they're so slashy at times! Plus, I adore threesomes and I totally see Abbey as being in on it from time to time. In a way, it's a good thing that it wasn't a popular pairing because it's what forced me to start writing. As Jae said in a different context, "No one was writing these incredibly obvious stories!" Dioscorea was my first finished fanfic -- but I started writing the threesome epic before that. Also, Josh is *so* every guy I went to college with. And I have a lot in common with Sam, as well. If I'm going to fantasize about fictional characters, I don't want them to remind me of people I know. :)

Christinecgb: You've mentioned that you find John Spencer sexy. Does it help if you find the character you're writing about sexy?

dafnagreer: Yes. Definitely. I adore John Spencer. And Stockard Channing. That was definitely part of the appeal. I was never a huge Martin Sheen fan (although I respect him for his politics), but I definitely like Jed. And truthfully, my writing Josh/Sam probably has a lot to do with how incredibly sexy they are on the show. Some of that is Rob Lowe & Brad Whitford -- but some of that is also how they play the characters. Where or When basically happened because I was enamored of the way Rob Lowe waggled his eyebrow. It gets back to, "well, if you don't find this sexy, why will the readers?" If you can't appreciate the characters as sexual creatures, why write them that way? There are plenty of stories to write where they can keep their clothes on.

Christinecgb: When you say Jed and Leo are slashy at times, can you think of some examples? I can think of some obvious ones – the kiss in "In the Shadow of Two Gunmen"...

dafnagreer: In general, I feel like they're slashy pretty much everytime they're in the same room together. :) But certainly that candlelit dinner from last season and when Jed teases Leo that he's the "Charlie Brown of missile defense." More recently, "What can I do to be of subject to you, Leo?" had all of us at the Jed/Leo list quite happy. Less obviously, "Let Bartlet Be Bartlet" is awesome. Reen's post-ep, Let McGarry Be McGarry is hands down the best Jed/Leo story yet written. Actually, that story is a good example of the importance of characterization. By the time you get to the sex Reen has you so deeply into the story that it really has an impact.

Christinecgb: What do you say to slash dissenters who say "they would never do that"?

dafnagreer: I find them funny. I mean, how likely is it that Josh and Donna are really going to get married in the Rose Garden? Or all these wild stories where people are kidnapped or have kids with diseases or whatever. A good writer can pull off just about anything. I hate rape stories, for example, but Lanning Cook wrote an excellent Sports Night one recently that totally had me believing it (Being An Anchor). Never say never, I guess.

Christinecgb: You talked a bit about how you got into fanfic when we discussed Dioscorea but perhaps you could talk about what your initial thoughts on fanfiction were and what keeps you writing and involved in the community?

dafnagreer: Since my reputation's already shot, I might as well admit that the first fanfiction I ever read was "Mistress Janeway". Not my fault! I was doing a Web search for Kate Mulgrew sites (this is during maybe season 2 or 3 of Voyager) and I just stumbled across it. And then I quickly found my way to more mainstream J/C sites. And then I realized it wasn't just Voyager, but that they had fanfic about everything! And I was very happy. :)

I should say, fanfiction also reminded me a lot of midrash. I discovered fanfiction just after spending a year in Jerusalem studying rabbinic texts -- and while obviously, I'm completely mixing the sacred & the profane, let's just say the idea of making up stories about pre-existing texts wasn't exactly a new one.

Christinecgb: A lot of writers claim to be a bit nervous about people in real life knowing about their online hobby - are you a covert writer? Is there anyone you discuss fanfic with in real life?

dafnagreer: Well, my friends know. Some more of the details than others. And some have read it. And my family knows I write it -- and they know it's West Wing focused, but I won't let my parents read any of it. I mean, can you imagine? :)

Christinecgb: (snorting with laughter...)

dafnagreer: But honestly, my biggest hurdle is that my friends aren't into the show as much as I am. I have to say, I wouldn't love for it to be something that got incredibly well known at work. I mean, I don't think I'd get fired over it -- but it would be looked at askance.

Christinecgb: So is there anything you can think of that you want to mention? Advice for new slash readers or something?

dafnagreer: guess I'd say that if a new story doesn't grab you in the first few grafs, skip it and move on to the next one. Life's too short & reading bad fic (or good fic that you're not interested in) is a good way to become a bitter old fic queen fast. Also, feedback.

One more piece of advice?

Christinecgb: - shoot.

dafnagreer: For readers, writers -- and even bitter old fic queens: It's just fanfiction, for god's sake. Don't take it so seriously.

DAFNA RECOMMENDS:

To tip my hat to my early influences: LR Bowen's The Snow Queen is an awesome Janeway/Chakotay/Paris story. It was my gateway to slash -- and I doubt I'm the only one. And Your Cruise Director's Killing Time was a revelation at the time -- of course, now the "Truth or Dare" genre has been done to death, but Your Cruise Director's story still holds up. And in general, though I was never a huge Voy slash fan (by the time I'd discovered slash, I'd already started to move out of the fandom), there's a ton of truly great Chakotay/Paris fic. Ditto for Picard/Q.

As for X-Files, I'd say you couldn't go wrong reading everything Xanthe and JiM have ever written. But then, I'm a Skinner fan. :) Sports Night fic is almost all amazing: http://trickster.org/sportsnight/, In particular, Sabine's Tom Glavine is astonishing, equally her and Shana's Fan Interference. But the shorter stuff too: A Winter's Tale by Kit. Anything at all by Charlemagne or Helen.

Ooh, one more, partly because I want more fic w/ this pairing: Return Match by Gail. It's Rabb/Brumby from JAG. A totally slashy duo, but as far as I know, this is the only story to put them together. (And it's good too. Read it on its own merits.)

Dafna Greer is the pseudonym of a 30-year-old journalist who can't believe that she's actually being consulted on how to write sex scenes. She was lured into fandom by her best friend on the grounds that "she liked Kate Mulgrew, didn't she." Which she did, since she'd seen her in "Major Barbara" many years before. So it's all George Bernard Shaw's fault, really.

Christinecgb is also 30ish and writes fanfic for The West Wing, The X-Files, Buffy and Star Trek not to mention a few other one-offs. When she's not writing she theorises about fanfic and has written a paper on the subject. She is currently in the process of writing a second whilst attempting to write the great Australian haiku.

Comments are welcome at c.giles@curtin.edu.au